Hundreds of motorists driving with 12 or more penalty points on their licence (From Gazette & Herald)

It's time this charity of amateur road users, (that's assuming they do actually drive), kept it's nose out, and let professional magistrates deal with these issues. Unless they had personally attended court they would not have heard the full facts of the case, so arn't in a position to make a judgement.

3.8liter wrote:
It's time this charity of amateur road users, (that's assuming they do actually drive), kept it's nose out, and let professional magistrates deal with these issues. Unless they had personally attended court they would not have heard the full facts of the case, so arn't in a position to make a judgement.

You are one of the 12+ pointers I would surmise.

If these selfish motorists who can't control their impulses are still on the road they are putting the law-abiding road users at risk.

Were one of them to kill, it'd be good see the lenient magistrate taking the rap for their inability to enforce the law.

Who cares? The government doesn't care because they've cut front line policing, a cut on top of an already ridiculous ongoing policy of replacing outgoing officers with Community support officers who have less power and just keep yobs in check and they cost less which is why they do it. There's some things you should never cut and policing is one of them. Do what you want it's open season.

Those with a lot of points on their driving licence will find car insurance in-affordable and be tempted to break that law as well. Last year I attended a "speed awareness" course after being snapped doing 34mph in Holme-of-Speeding-Mo
or. Although interesting, the majority only attended the event to save the points on their licence and keep their insurance premiums down. Me included!

I wonder how many more drunk and drug drivers will be tempted to get behind the wheel when York is a 20mph city?

After all they won't stand out from the crowd creeping along wide main roads, and have been told over and over how driving at this speed is the cure for all ills.

3.8liter wrote:
It's time this charity of amateur road users, (that's assuming they do actually drive), kept it's nose out, and let professional magistrates deal with these issues. Unless they had personally attended court they would not have heard the full facts of the case, so arn't in a position to make a judgement.

Magistrates in North Yorkshire are not professional, so chiding Brake for being "amateur" doesn't make for a convincing argument against the charity's position.

That said, Brake should perhaps produce some actual case studies rather than going for a headline statistic which may or may not point to a genuine problem.

again wrote:

3.8liter wrote:
It's time this charity of amateur road users, (that's assuming they do actually drive), kept it's nose out, and let professional magistrates deal with these issues. Unless they had personally attended court they would not have heard the full facts of the case, so arn't in a position to make a judgement.

You are one of the 12+ pointers I would surmise.

If these selfish motorists who can't control their impulses are still on the road they are putting the law-abiding road users at risk.

Were one of them to kill, it'd be good see the lenient magistrate taking the rap for their inability to enforce the law.

No I am not as it happens. I have held a clean licence since 1972.

To not ban someone for 'hardship reasons' who has accummulated 12 points is one thing, but to continue adding points after that point is not acceptable!
12 points should be regarded as a final written warning and any further transgression should invoke an automatic ban!

Brake are just a lot of poorly researched, full of hot air special interest group.

Statements like

“It’s time for the Government to get tough with these selfish, irresponsible and potentially deadly drivers, and put a stop to their illegal and dangerous driving before it results in a devastating crash.”

There are a multitude of reasons why someone may accumulate points on their license and very few of them would indicate dangerous driving, particularly as dangerous driving is a summons only, non-ticketable offence.

Someone could hit 6 points for being caught driving without insurance twice, that would certainly make them selfish and irresponsible, but deadly? I don't think so.

You can't take Brake seriously as an organisation when they spout rubbish like that. Magistrates, paid or otherwise are considered to be upstanding members of the community and capable of making a decision on the merits of each individual case. Brake are not, so they should keep quiet until they have something genuine and useful to say!

Ban them. They have had plenty of time to drive within the law but have chosen not to, preferring to disregarded the consequences of loosing their licence. Points are evidently no longer a deterrent for some but just a way of life.

Someone could hit 6 points for being caught driving without insurance twice, that would certainly make them selfish and irresponsible, but deadly? I don't think so.

Driving without insurance is essentially an economic crime, not a safety-related one. This is because the victims of uninsured accident perpetrators will have their costs met through the insurance industry kitty that has been set up to pay them. So the main consequence of uninsured driving is to drive up the cost of insurance for those who obey the law. It is not, necessarily, an indication of poor or dangerous driving. Therefore it should be punished economically (I would suggest by a fine that is set at 10x what a comprehensive insurance policy would have cost the offender to have been covered at the time (s)he was stopped), not by a driving ban or points leading to one.

I wouldn't mind betting that the overwhelming majority of those who rack up 12 points (a) do so through multiple speed camera strikes, and (b) have no other convictions and have never been in trouble with the law in any way, shape or form whatsoever. The answer, therefore, is to change the speed limit laws so that they actually have the support of the majority of the public rather than impose ever more draconian ones that are supported only by the tiny minority who oppose motoring for political and ideological reasons, and to stop making criminals out of thousands of hard working, responsible taxpayers.

No. People who rack up 12 points through multiple speeding offences have chosen to break the law over and over again because they've unilaterally decided that they're above it. They are, in fact, arrogant prats who are at best an annoyance and at worst a danger to others. "Responsible" is exactly what they're not, and they should be made to take the consequences of their actions.

Should be an automatic ban on the grounds of stupidity.

I've picked up points on a couple of occasions in the past and modified my driving accordingly. If you have 6 points and are too thick to slow down you shouldn't be trusted behind the wheel.

As for pathetic sob stories. If your job depends on driving you must be even less intelligent to get caught so many times. Should bank staff be let off nicking the odd tenner here and there because they would lose their job?

BioLogic wrote:
Brake are just a lot of poorly researched, full of hot air special interest group.

Statements like

“It’s time for the Government to get tough with these selfish, irresponsible and potentially deadly drivers, and put a stop to their illegal and dangerous driving before it results in a devastating crash.”

There are a multitude of reasons why someone may accumulate points on their license and very few of them would indicate dangerous driving, particularly as dangerous driving is a summons only, non-ticketable offence.

Someone could hit 6 points for being caught driving without insurance twice, that would certainly make them selfish and irresponsible, but deadly? I don't think so.

You can't take Brake seriously as an organisation when they spout rubbish like that. Magistrates, paid or otherwise are considered to be upstanding members of the community and capable of making a decision on the merits of each individual case. Brake are not, so they should keep quiet until they have something genuine and useful to say!

I agree entirely. Thanks for talking some sense.
People need cars to get to work. a ban could lead to loss of job, and homelessness for an entire family, yet some people seem to think that's ok!.

3.8liter wrote:

BioLogic wrote:
Brake are just a lot of poorly researched, full of hot air special interest group.

Statements like

“It’s time for the Government to get tough with these selfish, irresponsible and potentially deadly drivers, and put a stop to their illegal and dangerous driving before it results in a devastating crash.”

There are a multitude of reasons why someone may accumulate points on their license and very few of them would indicate dangerous driving, particularly as dangerous driving is a summons only, non-ticketable offence.

Someone could hit 6 points for being caught driving without insurance twice, that would certainly make them selfish and irresponsible, but deadly? I don't think so.

You can't take Brake seriously as an organisation when they spout rubbish like that. Magistrates, paid or otherwise are considered to be upstanding members of the community and capable of making a decision on the merits of each individual case. Brake are not, so they should keep quiet until they have something genuine and useful to say!

I agree entirely. Thanks for talking some sense.
People need cars to get to work. a ban could lead to loss of job, and homelessness for an entire family, yet some people seem to think that's ok!.

I found a pedal in my car. It's the middle one of 3 and when I put my foot on it I slow down. I also found one to the right of that. When I lift my foot off it I slow down. It's really that simple. If people are too simple to cope with this best to get them off the road.

People who rack up 12 points through multiple speeding offences have chosen to break the law over and over again because they've unilaterally decided that they're above it.

Some of them do so simply because they don't think, but others do so because they believe the law to be a bad law, and furthermore one that is only enforced as zealously as it is because that enforcement can be done by technology, without the need for human labour. Before the days of speed cameras, no policeman with any common sense would stop a motorist driving past a school gate at 34mph at 3am. They would, however, pull over someone doing the same speed at 3pm on a school day.

I'd be interested to know what the proportion of motorists committing minor speeding offences are caught relative to the proportion of burglars and muggers.

Repeated opinion polling has shown that a clear majority of the population believe that most speed limits are far too low, especially on motorways. Interestingly, we have the lowest motorway speed limits in the EU, apart from Denmark and Slovakia. It is equally interesting that rabid Europhiles such as the Lib Dems go strangely quiet when it comes to the idea of harmonising European motorway laws in such a way that would improve life for UK motorists, e.g. fuel duty and motorway speed limits.

Magistrates are not fools, and if they are deciding to allow appeals against point-accumulated driving bans it is because they realise, through the application of common sense, that the motorists caught by them do not represent a danger to anybody. That in turn shows that they have been caught by bad laws (both the laws themselves and the way they are enforced) that need to be changed.

Just what is a 'road safety' charity?
How come Brake exists/ where does their money come from?
You don't see anyone out with collection tins.
From what you read of their pontifications they seem to be a lot of 'jobsworths' who are on one of the many charity gravy trains that exist in this country.

It would seem that the country is full of law breakers each believing that the law they break doesn't matter.
Speeders, foxhunters, shoplifters, druggies, muggers, rapists, child abusers and murderers all believing that if they don't get caught then all is well. If they do get caught, the police should have better things to do.
Each group will tell you they are nothing like the others.

Guy Fawkes wrote:

People who rack up 12 points through multiple speeding offences have chosen to break the law over and over again because they've unilaterally decided that they're above it.

Some of them do so simply because they don't think, but others do so because they believe the law to be a bad law, and furthermore one that is only enforced as zealously as it is because that enforcement can be done by technology, without the need for human labour. Before the days of speed cameras, no policeman with any common sense would stop a motorist driving past a school gate at 34mph at 3am. They would, however, pull over someone doing the same speed at 3pm on a school day.

I'd be interested to know what the proportion of motorists committing minor speeding offences are caught relative to the proportion of burglars and muggers.

Repeated opinion polling has shown that a clear majority of the population believe that most speed limits are far too low, especially on motorways. Interestingly, we have the lowest motorway speed limits in the EU, apart from Denmark and Slovakia. It is equally interesting that rabid Europhiles such as the Lib Dems go strangely quiet when it comes to the idea of harmonising European motorway laws in such a way that would improve life for UK motorists, e.g. fuel duty and motorway speed limits.

Magistrates are not fools, and if they are deciding to allow appeals against point-accumulated driving bans it is because they realise, through the application of common sense, that the motorists caught by them do not represent a danger to anybody. That in turn shows that they have been caught by bad laws (both the laws themselves and the way they are enforced) that need to be changed.

So we should increase speed limits because that's what people want and it brings us in line with the rest of the EU.

Should we also increase the death rate on our roads to be in line with the EU as well?

We have the lowest limits and the lowest death rate. Coincidence?

That's not coincidence, that's an EU conspiracy.

... or drive on an EU eastern european licence, can't put points on them.

... or drive on an EU eastern european licence, can't put points on them.

Snap

It would seem that the country is full of law breakers each believing that the law they break doesn't matter.

In respect of speeding specifically, they don't believe that the law doesn't matter: they believe that it is wrong and a bad law. There is an important difference.

Speeders, foxhunters, shoplifters, druggies, muggers, rapists, child abusers and murderers all believing that if they don't get caught then all is well.

The majority of the public believe that rape, murder, mugging and child abuse are wrong, should remain illegal and be punished severely.

Some of the public (probably not a majority) believe that foxhunting and the consumption of currently illegal drugs are wrong, should remain illegal and be punished severely.

Very few of the public (a clear and tiny minority) believe that driving on the M1 at 80mph is in itself wrong, should remain illegal and be punished severely.

Two points that you won't accept but who gives a ****.

1) Those doing the raping, murdering, mugging and child abuse, don't think that they are doing anything wrong, or that the law applies to them. A bit like the hunt scum.

2) Polls continually show around 80% support for the hunt ban

You see, this gets my back up, speed limits are there for a reason, to limit the speed that you are supposed to drive at.

I mean how hard is it? you see the sign that indicates how fast you can go, then there is a dial on your dashboard with numbers on it, if the big hand says you are going over this number, then guess what, you're going too fast, and breaking the law. The middle pedal, is called a brake, applying gently will make that big hand move to a level that is at or below the number on the sign. Simples yes?

And what annoys me more is those people who think it's well funny to overtake me while i'm doing the speed limit to show how superior their machine is compared to my 1.6. Then a mile up the road i'm behind them at the lights, so have you actually gained anything?

I had this situation on the A19 a few months back, where i was overtaken by a woman, yes, a 'Safer' female driver, trying to get ahead of me in her rust bucket, failing to see the central reservation coming up ahead, so, me being the safer driver had to slow up in order for her to pull in safely avoiding a serious, if not fatal crash, and putting me, my wife and 3 children in danger...didn't even get a thank you...then she proceeded to speed away once she was safe...

The roads are full of idiots, and getting 12 points is a very clear indication of this stupidity, and for the record, i have a clean license and have done since 2004 (when i passed).

Get these prats off the roads...